Pondering: If You Tell Me You’re Independent, What Does That Mean?

/ Ally Bean

Something pretty to enjoy while pondering…

Shortly before the pandemic began 2 years ago this month, I was at a social function with Z-D.  It was for his work.

I was seated next to a 70-something woman, a delightfully chatty child-free extrovert, who was [and I hope still is] the wife of a man who used to work with Z-D.

Thanks to many social business events we’d endured together I knew this pleasant woman as a casual acquaintance so this was good.  From previous conversations with her I knew she was a Joiner with a capital ‘J’.

To wit, over the years she’d told me that she was in a garden club, a book club or two, a dog breed club, a bicycling group, a music guild, a Bible study group, a travel club, and she was a member of a country club.

She went on a *sisters only* cruise every year and hosted parties for her nieces who were involved in multi-level marketing schemes.  She always had a family Thanksgiving dinner at her house.  Plus at one point she had worked full-time and socialized with her workmates, seemingly every weekend.

• • •

We had a lovely time chatting, which is to say I mostly listened and she mostly talked.

As we were getting ready to leave, perhaps sensing this would be the last time we’d see each other [and it was], she leaned over to me and said in a confidential tone: “I’m independent. I need for you to know that.”

INDEPENDENT?

NEED for me TO KNOW?

SAY WHAT?

I had zero idea what she was getting at and because of the circumstances I didn’t get the opportunity to ask her any, shall we say, clarifying follow-up questions.

Over these last two years I’ve thought about that comment often and have talked with friends in real life about what it could mean.  Without context it can be interpreted in a variety of ways.  Here is what we’ve come up with:

  • I’m independent because I have money of my own.
  • I’m independent because I am free to choose which groups I join.
  • I’m independent because I don’t have children.
  • I’m independent because I’m retired and so is my husband.
  • I’m independent because I grew up as a second-wave feminist.
  • I’m independent because I haven’t declared myself to be aligned with a particular political party.
  • I’m independent because the church I go to is outside the mainstream, not part of an established protestant denomination.

So what say you, my gentle readers?  

Do you consider yourself to be independent? And if you do, what does that mean to you? Also, do you need people to know you’re independent?

Please share your thoughts in the comments below.  This can be an interesting conversation.

• 🌺 •

218 thoughts on “Pondering: If You Tell Me You’re Independent, What Does That Mean?”

    • Great list of attributes. They describe me to a T. However this woman, I dunno. She is not cool with being on her own, hence all the club affiliations. And I’m not sure she was ambitious. 🤔

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  4. I’m guessing from the way you described her, several of your possible answers fit her. The fact that she is a talker, and went so far as to say that, tells me, she is going to do what SHE wants to do, period. Wearing it on her sleeve like a badge of honor, strikes me as a little over the top and full of herself. I think many of us consider ourselves “independent”, in the sense we don’t like people to tell us how to think,.. I like how her words stuck in your mind and you have chewed on them… good food for thought.

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    • DM, good food for thought is exactly what this post is all about. She was a lovely person, but I don’t entirely get how she thinks she’s independent. She joins groups then follows along with what they want her to do, how to think. Is the independence in which groups she joins?

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  5. Whoa, what a privilege that she shared that with you. I’d guess that she was looking at you with admiration. Perhaps she saw that quality in you and realized that, while your independence is apparent to others, hers might not be so obvious. I think she was a fan.

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  6. I like to consider myself independent and by that I mean I can make plans, pursue goals, travel, chose my friends and the company I keep. I can chose the activities I participate in and groups to belong to. But what does it really mean? We all have constrictions. I don’t have unlimited funds. I have duties to family. My health is good now but that could change. What an interesting question, Ally.

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    • Anna, I like your personal definition of what it means to be independent. It jives with how I see myself, too. I’ve talked about this with friends in real life and it’s endlessly fascinating to learn how differently we define the word *independent*

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    • Kate, excellent point about the female companionship. She does things with other women all. the. time. I hadn’t thought about that. Her message might well have been: I am more than a wife.

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      • That’s exactly what crossed my mind… That she was confirming to you (and to herself) that she is more than just a wife and that she does many things for herself – even if they do mean joining all sorts of clubs and whatnot, instead of staying at home and being the good little wife.

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  9. Perhaps, she feels independent because she has no children of her own, supports herself financially, and is free to join or not join any group she chooses?
    I read the list at the link nrhatch shared and find I fall into most of those categories, but while I’m mostly independent I do have hive mind tendencies too especially when it comes to my kids and family. 😀 I think that’s natural and most of us are probably a mix of both-the percentages of how much differs in us all.

    I like what Arlene said! I think she was a fan of yours too.

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    • Deborah, you may have nailed it. She is without children and did work for a while, so maybe that’s all there is to the comment. As for joining groups, some people see that as being independent while others see it as being dependent. I like the link Nancy shared, too. I see myself in those behaviors, but I am a known free spirit. I agree with you about how we’re a mix of independent and dependent. How can we not be? No man is an island, and all that…

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  10. This is kind of weird. After reading about your conversations together, my first ‘gut’ instinct was that she might have come off as ‘needy’ with all her groups and she wanted you to know that she really isn’t needy?
    Hmmm…it’s weird though.
    I’m guessing she really enjoyed her time with you and thought highly of you and wanted you to think highly of her as well.

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    • Suz, I see what you mean about coming off as needy. I suppose that could explain her love of groups and getting together with people to do things. I attributed it to being an extrovert, as seen through the eyes of an introvert. I agree with your last sentence. I do think she wanted me to remember her in a positive light. And I do.

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    • AutumnAshbough, I like your take on this. There’s a ring of truth to what you’re saying. I’ll never know for sure what she meant, but it has made for some great conversations over the last few years.

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    • Claudette, I don’t think of her as a free spirit. She does what her groups want her to do in the ways they want her to do it, which seems to me to be giving your power away to other people. Thus you are dependent. But maybe she defines independence differently based on some other criteria than group affiliation. 🤷‍♀️

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        • It’s one of those topics that has lead to many tangents of meaning. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way to define independent, but I have learned from this that you should never assume your definition is the one that someone else uses. So easy to miscommunicate.

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  13. Given the context, I assume political leanings…but who knows. Am I independent? I like to think so to a certain extent. I do what I like regardless of how others feel. I like to think I’m my own person and can stand alone without husband or child, even though I often talk about them. I have no problem going on self dates…does that answer your query?

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  14. I’m independent AND inter-dependent; i. e., my husband lets me do as I please and applauds my experiments in both cooking and writing. But “No [wo]man is an island” and all that jazz.

    Ms. Whizz seems happy in her own orbit but I’ll bet you probably are contented in yours without all the social connections. Am I right?

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    • Marian, what a great way to explain this. I am a free spirit but am inter-dependent too. I lean toward being on my own, but realize some people want to be more connected/associated with groups.

      One of the issues with this conversation has been the question: what does being part of a group mean to you? Do you default to thinking you’re independent thereby can join in OR do you think you’re giving up your power when you join one? Truly fascinating

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    • ganga1996, you’re right of course. We are all ultimately dependent in various ways. I suppose the issue is how dependent are you and where do you place your trust?

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  16. Given the context and who you were talking to, I’d guess she meant that she doesn’t rely on her husband to do things for her? I think (and often, rightfully so) that that generation is more likely to have husbands who handle all the finances, etc. When I was getting my Real ID a few years ago, a 70-something woman was there, distraught that she didn’t have the proper paperwork because all the utilities and bank accounts were in her husband’s name.

    My second thought would be that it has to do with politics, given that was prior to the last presidential election? Especially if any conversation involved conservative or liberal agendas. But, usually people would say, “I’m AN independent.”

    Am I independent? Sure, I can take care of myself! But I do like have backup!

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    • Bijoux, I like your reasoning. It makes sense. She very well could have meant exactly what you said. She was from a different generation and felt the need for me to know she was different from her peers. Also Boomers are notorious joiners so that’d explain all that. It also could have been a political statement, although we never discussed politics directly. I like your last few sentences. I’m with you, I’m a free spirit but I do like some backup. I appreciate it very much.

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      • Oh now, this does make sense… taking into consideration her age, she is rather “advanced” in her thinking as in, she doesn’t need his permission to do all these things she chooses to do.

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    • nance, her comment could have been a political statement. Sure. Many people are plugged into the politics of our country, processing life from that perspective. I cannot say for certain what she meant, but it makes for a great conversation.

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  19. I thought all the things in your list, but the way you presented her actual comment made me think political affiliation first thing. Let’s see, how do I define independent: Willing, able and competent enough to see something that needs doing and, at the very least attempt to do it. There is for me quite a bit of the feminist viewpoint tied to independence as well (thanks for putting that in the list) but I might put it as having the skill and confidence to go down your own path despite what society dictates.

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    • Deb, it very well could be that she was being political for some reason that made sense to her. She wasn’t dotty, that’s for sure. I know she was big on talking about feminism when I first met her years ago, so that might be the catalyst for the comment. I wholeheartedly agree with your definition of being independent. Do your own thing in your own way regardless of pushback.

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  20. No one is independent. Some are more so than others but we are all interdependent in many ways. That’s my base take on it from a generalized point of view. Given her age maybe it was just she made her own decisions about what to do? No idea if it’s a political statement as it’s not something we would declare here in Canada seems our political alliances don’t run that deep and I have voted for 3 parties in the past. Bernie

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    • BernieLynne, I agree with your premise. We’re all interconnected. It comes down to how tightly connected I suppose. I doubt that it was political, but could have been. I guess that it was her way of telling me she socialized in ways that suited her. Being an extrovert joining groups would be nirvana to her. Loved this woman regardless of what she meant.

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    • apeacefultree, you may be onto it. We both were guests at the event– courtesy of our husbands. I can see how in this situation that would have made sense. I did think of her as more than someone’s wife [as I am too], but perhaps that was a sore spot with her. Good insight

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  22. She made that statement apropos of nothing at all? Perhaps she was trying to convince herself of something by trying to convince you. (Dominated the conversation with stories about herself – low self-esteem, attention seeking or just a twat.) People have said that I am very independent and meant it as a compliment. It is not. Being very independent is my greatest character flaw and most self-destructive behavior.

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    • Grace, yes she said the comment as we were getting ready to leave the event. We scattered immediately afterward. Maybe she was trying to convince herself by telling me who she thought she was? I was surprised by the comment, but not dismayed. Interesting about your take on being independent. I’ve never thought of it as a character flaw but I take your point. Everything in moderation, I suppose.

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    • Dan, I’m like you. I have my independent moments, but no one needs to know about them. I liked this woman but didn’t really know her on a personal level, so her remark is open to interpretation.

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  24. Hmm. I do think this was weird. I ditto what Arlene said. I also think that she joined things because she enjoyed companionship, not because she was dependent on the groups so much. I think she considered you independent and she feared somehow that you didn’t see her that way.

    I think of myself as independent, but my ties to family and my daycare responsibilities keep me from doing very much independently. I certainly don’t feel the need to TELL people that I think of myself as independent. Thanks for the very interesting topic to ponder this morning.

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    • Ernie, while the comment to me came out of the blue, I very much liked talking with this woman. She was informative, but she also seemed totally focused on being part of a group. Like her identity was tied to it, more than to her own sense of self.

      I’m with you about not feeling the need to tell anyone I’m independent. I am a free spirit, both because of my personality and because of life circumstances, but I don’t exactly care if anyone knows it or not. But that’s me.

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  25. That’s an odd thing to say off the cuff since you weren’t talking about anything related to that at the time. I’m not completely independent (no one truly is in my opinion) but I’m not overly dependent or co-dependent. I’m independent financially which is possibly what she meant?

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    • Margaret, I’ve wondered if she was referring to financial independence, too. She worked for a while and I believe inherited some money from a ‘maiden lady’ aunt. [She talked about everything in the time I knew her, so I wasn’t prying to learn that.] What she said was odd, but has been fodder for many a good conversation with friends.

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  26. It does seem like an odd comment. Perhaps after describing so many groups and activities she commits to, she wanted to clarify that she has not sunk so low as to align with either political party. Might it be possible that you misheard her and she was referring to adult undergarments (“I’m in Depends”)?

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    • Donna, you raise an excellent point. Maybe she was stating a political point of view to counterbalance her propensity to join groups. That could be it. As for mishearing what she said… you are very funny. Good one.

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  27. The fact that she had to voice that comes across to me as if she was trying to convince herself that she’s independent. Perhaps others have told her she’s too dependent – or maybe as she grew up her parents ingrained that feeling in her. To me, if you are truly independent, you don’t have to say it – you are happy to live on your own, do things on your own, do not need others to give you permission to do, or be, what you want. Frequently joining groups seems the opposite of independent to me.

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    • Carol, I agree with you 100%. I have to wonder about her childhood and if all her joining is an offshoot of that. I feel the same as you about being independent– joining seems to me to be a situation in which you give up your power to other people. But I’m an introvert so who knows. I am to the best of my abilities independent, but I don’t go around telling people about it. I figure my life choices show it.

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  28. I assumed she meant politically, as well. But, I live in PDX, where politics always seem to be at the forefront. Here, I could see someone saying that they needed someone else to know their political affiliations, perhaps especially if they stray from the majority and they think they’ve found a like-minded soul. I don’t know if it’s like that where you are?

    I honestly can’t think of any other reason (not knowing the content of your conversation) for a person to declare a need for a casual acquaintance to know their location on the independence/dependence continuum. I guess that I see independence as a continuum is a sort-of answer to your question about what independence means. As is usually the case with me, my go-to answer is: It depends.

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    • Rita, she may have been referring to politics. We weren’t talking about anything political, but who knows. Around here people are generally discreet about their political affiliations so it would have been a confidential aside.

      If this comment had come from a close friend I’d have just nodded my head because I’d have already known who my friend was. But this was a situation in which we had a relationship that was ships that pass in the night. I like your conceptualization of independence being a continuum. That makes perfect sense to me.

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  29. I’ve been told I am “too” independent by more than a few men, including my bosses and both husbands. “You don’t seem to need me” one husband said. I said “Well, isn’t that a good thing? It means I’m here with you because I want to be, not because I need to be.” I’ll never understand men.

    Deb

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  30. Without a modifier, ‘independence’ seems to me to be an empty vessel. Politically independent means one thing; economically independent another. Emotional and intellectual independence often co-exist, but not necessarily. While we celebrate ‘Independence Day’ as a nation, our population has become increasingly dependent in a multitude of ways. One of the greatest trials of aging is becoming less physically independent. And so on.

    I must say, the woman’s comment is curious at best. Independent people generally are confident people, and would feel no need to proclaim their independence, let alone in such a strange way. Which is to say: I don’t have a clue what she might have meant, but I suspect what she said points to some significant dependencies.

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    • Linda, good point about the modifiers. Talking with friends about this remark we’ve all gone in different directions when it comes to what independence means. There is no set definition of the word so it makes for good conversations.

      I see what you mean in that confidence usually correlates to independence. To say what she did seems less than confident, thus making her seem dependent. It was an odd moment in time– that has stayed with me.

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  31. I wonder if she was letting you know that she was independent because she was planning on leaving her husband? Is that why the [‘hope still is”]? That was my first thought as I read your story. I consider myself to be as independent as I can be with a husband and kids. All your possibilities are reasonable.

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    • Janet, when I said “hope still is” I was thinking of Covid fatalities, not divorce– but you could be right. I don’t know these people well at all. They’ve left the area, having retired elsewhere, so who knows. I like your way of describing your independence. Independence is all in the context of the moment you’re living in.

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  32. It’s not so much the disconnect between describing herself as independent while being a Joiner, but the fact that she felt a need for you to know that fact that’s most odd. It’s not like she was auditioning for anything, or you were interviewing her, nor (i’m sure) had you made any form of judgemental comment. Perhaps she’d heard she was viewed in a certain manner by others in her husband’s work circle and, as she liked you, she wanted you to think well of her.

    When I’ve used independent to describe myself (during those dreaded internet dating years) I primarily meant it as financially responsible for myself as many in my position were in receipt of financial support from an ex. But I can see this doesn’t shed any light on this scenario. Interesting discussion Ally.

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    • Deb, you may be onto why she told me what she did. She may have been attempting to dispel an assumption about her so that I’d know who she truly was. Could be. She’d be more inclined to have her ear to the ground about what was being said at her husband’s former workplace. Me? I just show up when asked and chat politely. I never know what’s going on with Z-D’s work.

      I understand your definition of independence in light of your situation. Makes sense. As for this woman’s comment… it is fodder for endless conversations.

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  33. Maybe the bard had it right when he said “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”? If you’re truly brave, do you nudge someone and whisper in their ear “hey, Ally, I’m brave”? If you are truly wise, do you run around the streets of Athens proclaiming your wisdom? Maybe this is one of those cases where she’s trying to convince you, or herself, that she is independent?

    And, yes, there are terms for this flaunting, like for flaunting newly acquired wealth? Prince Charles (of Wales) never needed to flaunt his wealth…

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    • MidLife Cat Lady, yes this remark is confusing. It’s unclear what she meant by independent– as you have eloquently pointed out while describing yourself. 🤷‍♀️

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    • kari, your idea is a reasonable explanation of how she said what she said. It’s plausible. I don’t know if it was a political statement, but could be. If nothing else it is a good place to start a conversation.

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  36. Well, nobody’s truly independent unless they’re surviving off the grid like those bearded people in those weird magazines that people leave lying around Mecca after leafing through them. So while it may be intriguing what she actually meant by that NEED TO KNOW statement, you can at least take some solace in the fact that she’s only fooling herself…

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    • evilsquirrel13, this woman was as far on the grid as any human being could be, lacking no modern amenities. Therefore your conclusion based on your logic is correct that she wasn’t independent in any way. As for her needing me to know… who knows?

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  37. Actions speak louder than words; I often wonder about people who tell me that they are this way or that way, especially if worded like that. However, maybe the “I need for you to know that” statement was meant to prepare you for something she was about to do.

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    • Lynette, I agree it was an odd way to phrase what she said, not to mention it was out of the blue. I don’t know her motivation, but it has made for some interesting pondering. If she was preparing me for something I never heard about it. She was a casual acquaintance who I only knew because of circumstances. I’ve never heard of or seen her since that day.

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  38. When I look at the list, I’d go with have money of my own. So, no, I’m not independent. I am a registered independent, and that is mostly because I’m usually unhappy with both choices I’m provided with and don’t want my name associated with either candidate. I am also an introvert which would have caused me to be listening rather than talking like you were. 🙂

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    • Judy, I’ve come to think that financially independent might be what this woman meant. It seems in keeping with her personality and priorities. I vote Independent, too, for the reasons you mention. In situations like a business social event, I’m more than happy to listen to someone else talk. As an introvert it’s the easiest way to spend the evening.

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  39. Maybe it’s just me, but I am firmly of the belief that she wanted you to know that she is not affiliated with either the Dem or Rep party, thus an Independent. I am catching the drift that you are a bit younger than she, and I empathize with her desire for you to know that about her, especially in 2019-2020. As a (young) senior citizen, I am astonished at the presumptions younger people make about me. I too sometimes just state something to help guide their perceptions along at the right path to understand me.
    Nina

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    • Nina, your insight is fascinating. It could well be that in order to clarify who she was this woman wanted me to know her political point of view. I’d talked with her many times over the years so it’d be no surprise to me that she voted Independent, but I take your point about perceptions based on age. This could well explain the remark. 🤔

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  40. Lots of people in the past few years have changed their political affiliation to the Independent Party and I would assume that’s what she meant. People want to tell others “I’m Independent” so you don’t think they are supporters of their previous party affiliation leader. I think you need to think back on what others around you two were talking about before she whispered that. Perhaps her husband was talking politics earlier and she wanted to separate herself from his views?

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    • Jean, you raise a good point about why she may have leaned in to tell me what she did. I don’t remember what her husband talked about, he being notorious dull and pedantic. I’d not be surprised to learn that he is a proud member of the GOP so you may well have solved the mystery of the confidential remark. It all fits.

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  41. This is such a mystery! I wish we could rewind and revisit the entire conversation. Knowing what we know now about her declared independence, perhaps some of her chatter contained some clues?

    My bet is that it’s a code phrase for a super exclusive club she (obviously) wants to join, and she had some inkling that you would light up when you heard the magic words and… I don’t know, teach her a special handshake? take her to a back room gathering?

    My fervent hope is that you run into again at some point, and that she says more off the wall things you will then report to us!

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    • Suzanne, I know what you mean. I’d like to go back and revisit our conversation prior to the last remark. I was listening to her, but in my memory it was all cheerful chit-chat about vacations and getting a pet sitter.

      If what she said is a code phrase I’m not aware of it. I’m sorry that I couldn’t teach her the secret handshake or give her the password to getting into the back room gathering. In that respect I am useless.

      I doubt I’ll ever see her again. Now that they’ve retired she and her husband are no longer in this area– and outside of business soirees I never had any contact with her when she was here.

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  42. I love asking/answering these sort of life questions so here we go. I kind of take her letting you know as maybe she likes to share how she feels she can be – or is – over a sort of societal norm over it? For me, whilst I consider myself independent thinking, independent over having hobbies/interests of my own and no desire or need to be joined at the hip to a partner 24/7 (I love and NEED alone time) I think the stereotypical independent vibe is be sustainable economically so about money and someone’s worth there over what money brings. So following a script of life of sorts. I got into it with an online guy bully a couple of years back who told me no man will want to date as I’m a “liability” as I don’t earn as much as them. I always contribute and help towards bills but over societal desires, I AM considered lacking in independence as the job I work hard at doesn’t pay enough to sustain me living alone. So I need to live with others. It went on for a several page debate me asking this guy how does he define “independence” anyway? Does he run his own wind farms and water etc? lol. Everyone is dependent it some way or most. I recall being surprised by one friend saying how independent I am and maybe it was just noticing me for something random, even though I know I am harshly judged over my job and so on at wider society
    Great post Ally 🙂

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    • Katy, thinking back on the conversation and this woman’s priorities in life I have decided, more or less, that she was talking about being financially independent. She certainly wasn’t independent when it came to what she did for fun; that was dictated by the groups she was part of. She was a second-wave feminist who, like many from that generation, sometimes define independence as it relates to working and earning a living. I dunno.

      I love your line about owning a wind farm and water supply. You’re right that everyone is dependent in one way or another. To me the interesting part of this conversation about how to define independence is that definitions vary widely. Make no assumptions when you use that word.

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      • Ally I hear you. People often seem to make it about this like how economic successful people are. I don’t personally ever label myself as a feminist for this sort of reason, exactly. Feminism should be about choice for the woman but it isn’t, it’s about forcing roles over women earning the same as men , regardless of those who want more traditional roles and you end up with parents paying others for childcare over society’s obsession over both partner’s being judged and questioned for doing something else over couples happy over one partner earning more and/or decent management of finances. This is I think probably why I struggled over dating lol. But I see it as people can be indipendend in different ways, it’s not just about money or a job that you do until a certain age your body dies earlier over it.

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        • I agree that there are many ways to be independent beyond financially. I know that for some women working outside the home was/is their goal. For others staying home was/is what they need to feel independent. I can’t say that one way is absolutely right or wrong, just different. Whether that statement makes me a feminist I suppose depends on how you define feminism. And that’s a topic for another day!

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  43. Really interesting discussion. I’ve always lived places that if you declare yourself independent, you don’t get to vote (well except for things like the actual presidential vote). I think it’s more reasonable to vote for the candidate you believe will best do the job, but it’s another example of flaws in our system.

    But I am curious as to why she needed you to know that she’s independent and what she meant by it. Lots of interesting ideas. I haven’t heard people use the term inter-dependent often. We always used to say that we are all a bit co-dependent as you can’t have a relationship without it. Perhaps interdependent is the new codependent. As someone who is not a joiner of groups I’ve never imagined that most of them would tell me what to think and do. Bah. I don’t see why you can’t find her and force her to explain all this. Waterboard her if you have to.

    Must I explain that last was a joke?

    Perhaps she’s an independent author.

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    • Zazzy, declaring yourself politically independent is the same here as where you are. You only vote in primaries, or on local issues. It’s ridiculous, but much about our voting system is. I won’t give either party my unwavering support so I remain independent.

      As for the comment that started this conversation, beats me. I imagine you’re right that interdependent now means what co-dependent used to mean. When I hear co-dependent I think of addiction. This woman and her husband are no longer here in this city. I only knew her through Z-D’s business socializing so she was a casual acquaintance. I doubt that I’ll see her again. I rather like allowing our conversation to remain a mystery, never to be completely explained.

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  44. Hmmm…I’m reading your comments about her involvement in groups and how you feel that might mean that she not independent. I’m a bit of a joiner myself, but I don’t know if that precludes me from being independent. Being part of a group doesn’t mean that 1) I go along willy-nilly or 2) participate in every aspect of that group. I don’t go around unprompted telling people I’m independent though so who knows?!?

    It is fun to ponder what she meant though.

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    • Katie, I join groups, too. I’m not against them, but I also have a strong sense of personal boundaries so I know I’ll never do anything I don’t want to do. I’m not so sure with this woman who seemed easily swayed by groupthink. It seemed like she joined so she wouldn’t have to think for herself. Just an impression, of course– and because of that impression her remark about being independent threw me for a loop. And has led to many interesting conversations.

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  45. I’d like to think of myself as independent, but then I consider all the things I’m dependent on (air, water, food, sunshine, music to get me through the day) and I realize I am anything but.

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    • Mark, I feel the same way. I’m independent as much as I can be, which isn’t all that much when you consider the basic services I need to survive. But I don’t need anyone to know just how independent I am. Or not, I guess.

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  46. Now that IS a question that begs some pondering.
    Initially, to me – particularly with keeping her age in mind, it seems by saying she is independent means that she makes her own decisions and doesn’t rely on her husband to “suggest” what she should or should not do.

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    • Gigi, that’s a good explanation. I’ve wondered about the generational aspect of this remark. I’m trying to understand it through the lens of a younger woman, rather than in the context of her age/reality. Could be as simple as what you suggest.

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      • Since I came back, it proves I’ve been pondering on it!
        I think she recognized another strong woman and wanted you to know, that despite how other women of her generation might behave, she is different. Also, should you ever chance upon her again, please ask. I think we are all dying to know *exactly* what she meant.

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        • Hello again! 😊

          You could be right. Interesting thought. She was a storyteller at heart and well read. In other words she was aware of people and how they behaved. Maybe she wanted me to know she was not like the others. That’d fit her personality actually. Kind of doing and saying things on the fly.

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  47. Unfortunately I don’t have time to read all the comments but I think she could join lots of groups and still be independent in that she chose the groups and doesn’t necessarily NEED to be part of them. Would her life be blighted if she weren’t in all of them? If so, perhaps she’s not so independent. I think independent as a political “side” would be prefaced by an “an”, as in “I’m an Independent” and why would she just suddenly come out with that? Fascinating to contemplate all your questions and to think about what independent really means. I think it has many possible meanings so when we hear it, we might have to look for further clarification from the source. 🙂

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    • Janet, I like how you explain the difference between being a joiner who doesn’t need to be part of a group [me] and being a joiner who must be part of a group [maybe her?]. It all comes down to where you put your power.

      The truly fascinating part of this remark is contemplating why she needed me, of all people, to know she considered herself independent. I liked this woman, always happy to see her at these business events, but hardly a close friend so why the confidence? I agree with you that independent can be defined in many ways– about as many ways as there are people on this earth!

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  48. I generally think I’m independent but none of us are, really, are we. Let’s go to John Donne for a moment, no (wo)man is an island. What I find interesting is that she NEEDED you to know that. WHYYYY.

    I guess we are all independent if we define that by making our own decisions, so maybe that’s what she was saying.

    BUT WHY. Why did you NEED to know? This woman actually sounds quite interesting in her variety of interests. Interesting in her variety of interests, am I drunk? No I am not. I’m just going to leave this comment unedited even though I sound insane.

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    • Nicole, I agree with you that none are really truly independent but we do tell ourselves that we are. I admit that in some ways I’ve posed an impossible question to answer, but I asked it anyhow.

      This woman was a delight. She was great to sit by at a business soirees because she never was at a loss for something interesting to say, a story to tell. I liked her, but can’t quite figure her parting comment to me.

      To be honest I like the mystery of not knowing what she meant, it’s led to some great discussions with friends about how we describe ourselves– and why.

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  49. Hmm, as you articulated, that leaves a lot of room for interpretation. When someone says, I’m an independent, used as a noun, it usually means their political affiliation. I think she must have been referring to something in her lifestyle in the context you described. I used that term to describe students who could think for themselves and weren’t likely to do something just because everyone else was doing it.

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    • Pete, your definition of independence is the same as mine. ‘Think for yourself’ is a thought that my mother, a teacher, programmed into me. Maybe that’s what this woman meant when she said she was independent, despite being in all those groups. She wasn’t dotty, so I feel she was telling me something substantial. But what exactly that is, not sure.

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  50. So many choices to ponder Ally. Well, I’d say this 70-year old free spirit said she was independent because she hadn’t declared herself to be aligned with a particular political party and further, I’d speculate perhaps her husband was vocal about his choice and she didn’t care to be associated with that candidate. I’m thinking this since it was an election year.

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  51. I’ve always been independent. I think women of my generation prided themselves on being able to look after themselves, as kind of a backlash to our parents generation where women were so often solely dependent on a man, so I suspect she was just trying to say she wasn’t reliant on her spouse to occupy her time, she was quite capable of taking care of herself and spending her time as she wished. She wasn’t part of one of those couples joined at the hip. But as she already knew you somewhat, and knew you would be already be aware of her independence, maybe it was as simple as her political affiliation? It’s an interesting question.

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    • Joni, your explanation of her era seems spot on. From what I can tell she had some money of her own and she joined groups on her own. I don’t know how her husband actually fit into her daily life, now that I think about it. She didn’t mention him often.

      Or it could have been a political statement. I’ll never know for sure, but her comment has been the catalyst for many a good conversation. For that, I thank her… wherever she may be!

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    • The Travel Architect, I like to believe she was/is an independent thinker because the world needs more of them. This woman was friendly and outgoing, very pleasant. But what she meant with that last remark is up for interpretation.

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  54. That is totally weird, and I can see why it would baffle you for all these years. My guess is she is proud of the fact that she can go out and do whatever she dang well pleases. And good for her. 🙂 Why she needed you to know that? Not sure.

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  55. It’s the context that puzzles me. She said it just as you were about to part. It was as though she didn’t want you to misunderstand anything she had previously said. The only three that seem to fit given that context were 1) that she’s independent because she has her own money and doesn’t depend on her husband (even though she’s attending an event sponsored by his company). 2) Don’t think she’s a Democrat or Republican. She’s an Independent. (People are touchy these days and don’t want to be identified with a party they don’t agree with.) 3) She wants you do know that, even though she goes to bible study, she’s not an Evangelical Christian. This is related to political leaning.

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    • Nicki, your analysis is good. I was surprised, and wordless, when she said what she did. It all happened in a matter of seconds, then we were on our separate ways. I always sensed that she had money, some earned, some inherited, so that could be the meaning. Could be the political angle, could be the church angle. I know her church was small and ecumenical, but not evangelical. If nothing else this remark as been the source of many interesting conversations. For that I am thankful.

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    • Donna, that’s really the crux of it. I’d know that you were independent by observing your actions, not because you told me you were. Thanks for your guarantee! 🙄

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  57. Such an interesting post and a lot of food for thought.
    I *am* independent – until recently (as in today is Day 1 of his sabbatical) my husband has had a very intensive international job. This means I manage the household + our children solo a lot. I’ve had to handle a lot of very challenging situations alone/independently.
    I appreciate what I can accomplish on my own, and think “independence” is a good skill.
    But…I actually like being dependent, too. As an adult, it feels nice to have a spouse that I rely on. I like sharing a bank account, I like coordinating my schedule so it works with his. I like the comfort that comes from having my life intertwined with others – looking out for their best interests and feeling like they’re looking out for mine.
    It works for us. So while yes, I am very capable of doing, being, and thinking independently, it is not central to my identity. In fact, I would say I would elevate the areas where I can be dependent as bringing me the most joy (and by dependent, I mean this more as a shared experience – better together sort of thing).

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    • Elisabeth, I like your idea that independence is a skill. No one has said that before. It sounds like you’ve found a healthy balance between being independent and dependent. This makes sense to me and I applaud your ability to understand your situation, being grateful along the way. I like having my life intertwined with my husband’s life, too. Overall I’m an independent person, but I am dependent in some aspects and that’s okay. We look at marriage as a team sport wherein we win when we each play to our strengths. Some days you’re the leader, some days you’re the follower.

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      • Amen. And yes, I absolutely believe that independence (and common sense!) are two skills – some of the most important life skills. Some of these skills come naturally, and I think some people are just more prone to crave/thrive with independence, but I do think they can also be learned and honed.
        Some independence is thrilling (like leaving home for university) and some of it is terrifying (some of the emergency room visits I’ve made with kids solo because their Dad is away)! But it’s a learning experience and I try to look for a good balance between different states of being.

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        • Excellent point about common sense being a skill also. I’m blessed with an independent spirit that’s tempered with common sense. It makes my life feel balanced and whole. I remember leaving for college, scared and excited in equal measure, wondering if I’d earn that diploma or not! [I did.]

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  58. Had I been a mouse in the corner of the room, listening intently to your conversation with her, I’d have a better chance of coming up with the reason she felt compelled to tell you she was independent. 🐭 I like that you have a long list of definitions that accurately describe the use of the term. As always thanks for sharing a thought-provoking post.

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  59. I kind of love that she dropped this little bombshell of a statement just as she was about to part ways. It made you & now us, give thought to what that means for us as individuals. Independence for me is the ability to do & think on my own accord & feel absolutely comfortable in doing so. To be my own person & to explore the things that make me happy. I will give you an example. For a number of years (before it was a thing), I have travelled with a group of girlfriends. Three of us are married, one is not. In the beginning, when we would be planning our adventures, people would often give me this rather confused look, followed by the question, “what does your husband think?” I always found that to be a very interesting question for it never entered my mind to seek his permission to do something I wanted to do. Knowing who I am as person, he would never think to stand in my way. I think this woman & I would have had an awful to talk about….if I could get a word in that is!

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    • Lynn, I love your definition of what it means to be independent. It’s perfect. People wondered what your husband would think of you traveling with girlfriends? That’s fascinating. Yet I suppose, maybe, that some wives ask permission to go on a vacation with girlfriends. I never have, but then my husband goes on vacations with his pals and I don’t remember being asked for permission. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. As for conversations with this women, she was a delight full of stories and insights that she told you, her audience.

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  60. Oy! I stopped reading the comments and sticking my nose in here and there 🙂
    Very interesting post and exchange, Ally.
    All this to say, what a bummer you won’t be running into her again 🙂

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    • Dale, I read all your comments and thanks for joining in. I’ll reply here to you by saying that in the course of talking about this here I’ve decided that given her generation she was probably telling me she was financially independent and didn’t need her husband’s permission to do things. I’ve also come to realize that by joining groups she was showing the world that she was able to make her own decisions about who she associated with [although I can’t help thinking that she’s the sort of person easily influenced by groups but that’s a different issue]. If nothing else she had stories to tell and made sitting through long business soirees better. I liked her, really I did.

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      • Maybe she was easily influenced and maybe that was okay, too. Maybe joining all these things opened her eyes to more, which leads her to keep learning. I can see why you would like her. Some people are fascinating to listen to. (And maybe she wanted you to know that she admired you and felt she had a kinship with you…)

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    • Eilene, I wasn’t judging her at all. I was listening, nodding my head, and smiling at her insights. There was no tension, just two very casual acquaintances catching up. Whatever she wanted me know about her with that remark got lost in the translation across generations or personalities or backgrounds. Who knows?

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  62. I think we all like to think of ourselves as independent thinkers, Ally, but in reality, we have all been influenced by others. And that’s a good thing – we don’t need to reinvent the wheel every day. I have been thinking a lot about community lately, in some ways the polar opposite of independence. The more I read, the more I think we need to focus on the common ground we have with others and celebrate our interconnectedness (is that a word?). Wow!!! Deep thoughts for a Friday morning! 🙂

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    • Laurie, you’re right. We’re all influenced by other people and by our educations and by our life experiences, so that in the end we’re an amalgamation of it all. I find it reassuring to know this.

      I agree about interconnectedness in our world. Our society is focused on competition and independence in the sense of power, but that isn’t always good. Got to remember we’re all on this planet together.

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  64. Oh gooodness this is such an interesting question…. I am now curious what she meant by her words… I feel like (if I am reading the context correctly) maybe she wanted you to be further confident of her independence having joined all these groups sans husband…

    I do feel myself as independent but I realize others may view me as in between maybe??? I feel like I am independent because before I met my husband, I bought and lived in my own home and thrived in my singledom… I had a job, my own money, friends and plentiful hobbies… Now that I am married, I don’t feel like my soul has changed per se, I still feel every bit like that single independent woman that I was but people on the outside might look in and see that my husband takes care of the bills, he does all the maintenance calls to providers if something goes awry (furnace, tv, car, etc), he does all the banking but I look at it this way… I took care of my self for 30 years of my life and I was pretty darn successful and if he likes doing all those things (just as I have my own contributions to this family), then let him be and let someone else take care of me/or that side of things for once… we women have much to carry on our shoulders at any given time in our lives… I think it’s a good thing to know you can be independent if you wanted to but also nice to be cared for once in a while as well… sorry for that tangent lol hopefully that made sense!?

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    • Jen, I can only imagine that this woman wanted me to remember her as someone who thought for herself, did for herself. Why she needed me to know this I’m unclear about. She was/is a friendly person, but from a different generation so maybe I missed the subtext of her farewell remark.

      You made perfect sense. I agree with you. You’re still independent even when your husband is doing some of the chores you could do, but don’t want to do. We have a similar breakdown of who does what in our relationship. I do things that are in my wheelhouse, he does ones that are in his– and the rest we muddle through together.

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  65. I have no idea what that means for her. When I hear the word, I think of someone who can support herself financially. My older brother filed as an independent during his college years because my parents were separated and our mother couldn’t afford to pay for his education. I’m an independent contractor, which means I assume responsibility for paying the taxes on work for hire jobs. But no idea what she means. It’s weird that she felt you needed to know this about her..

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  66. I would say she’s independent politically. Reminds me of friends who will out of the blue say “I’m a Christian, you know” as if I’d just asked them chant satanic versus with me.

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    • Jan, oh don’t try to tell me you didn’t ask them to chant a satanic verse with you! You’re right, that’s exactly what this remark was like. Out of the blue… maybe a declaration of something political? memorable, I’ll say that.

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  67. An interesting thing to declare about oneself. I really have no idea what she could have meant, because there are so many possibilities to choose from. I don’t think I’ve ever been truly independent, not even in the womb. I have a twin brother, and I’ve been snuggling up with humans since before the day I was born. I need humans, although I am not very social. I’ve never lived alone in my life.
    PS– If you are seeing this comment, then I truly have fixed my blogging email computer issues. Yay!

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    • Robin, YOUR COMMENT MADE IT THROUGH THE SYSTEM. Yay! It went to moderation, but you are here again. Good job.

      I love your way of describing yourself: “I’ve been snuggling up with humans since before the day I was born.” I see what you mean about never being independent. I am smiling, in fact. Interesting that you’ve never lived alone. I wonder how many other commenters can say that too?

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  68. I haven’t read other comments, but if someone said this to me, and said, “I need you to know this”, my first thought would have been that she was preparing to leave her husband. The urgency speaks to what she is going through, not to you at all. Whether she did or not, I would assume she was considering it at the time. An alternative would be that she wanted you to know that she is not aligned to any political party. Fascinating. I wish we could know.

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    • J, I take your point. I have no idea if this woman was getting ready to leave her husband. They were in their 70s, so if she did that it’d be outside the norm. She most definitely would be independent. No one has suggested this, btw. Many commenters believe she was referring to politics. Could be. I doubt I’ll ever see her again, but if I do I’ll try to suss out what she meant.

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  70. Her comment was interesting. I consider myself independent, but not really for the reasons you list. I’m comfortable in my own skin, so to speak, and like who I am. I make my own choices even though I enjoy listening to others. I’m, well…me. Actually, to took me a long time to become like this.

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    • Jennie, I like your description of your way of being independent. It rings true with me and my path to becoming who I am today, a free spirit. I’ll never know for certain what this lovely women meant, but I appreciate how her remark has been the catalyst for conversations. Thanks for joining in the conversation.

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  71. I am not reading through all the comments so, likely, my two cents will be worth a lot less, BUT, here I go. It’s her second statement (“I need for you to know that.”) that makes me wonder about her use of the word “independent.” It sounds a little defensive, like her involvement in so many social groups might make her appear dependent on having people around her. Since your conversation was before the pandemic, one has to wonder how she coped with the social restrictions. But I digress. Back to my impression: her possible defensiveness. I’m going to go out on a limb. I think extroverts sometimes (or often) envy introverts because we can be happy by ourselves. We don’t need (and absolutely don’t want) to be socially engaged every minute of the day. Maybe she was trying to say that, while you might perceive her as being dependent because she’s a social butterfly, she still is making choices about who, what, and when she engages, thus she’s independent. She might also have become aware that she had talked your ear off and perhaps thought that showed some weakness on her part.

    Maybe it was more a remark about her age. “I’m independent”=”I might be in my 70s but I can take care of myself. I don’t *need* people to take care of me, I just like being around people.” Perhaps she wanted you to see that you too can be independent when you’re in your 70s. In that case, she wasn’t being defensive. She was encouraging you to (maybe????) see her as a model for your 70s.

    Anyway, I don’t think her statement had anything to do with politics. It sounds like she was using “independent” as an adjective, not a noun.

    I hope you get to see her again. I know you won’t ask her about what she said, but maybe you’ll get more clues … 😉

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    • Marie, I like your reasoning. I agree that she could have been defensive about how she came across. I wasn’t judging her about being a social butterfly, but I wonder if other people had made negative comments about her [obvious?] need to join groups. I will say that I always got the impression that she could be swayed by groupthink, happy to let other people decide what they/she was going to do. She wasn’t exactly a free spirit at heart.

      Of course you also could be right that she was telling me that being in your 70s was great and that she was having fun independent from her husband and previous obligations. Who knows?

      Thanks for commenting here. Her comment is a fascinating example of ‘make no assumptions.’

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  72. I think it’s odd that she would feel compelled to tell you that, especially without explaining what she meant. Hind sight is always 20/20, but wouldn’t it have been nice to be able to ask her, “In what way?” At least then you’d know what she was talking about. On to your question, though: For me, being independent simply means thinking for myself and not counting on others to meet my every need. It doesn’t mean we’re not connected to each other and dependent on each other in many ways, because of course we all are. It just means I know that ultimately, I’m responsible for my own choices and my own happiness.

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    • Ann, yes it would have been great to ask a follow-up question or two. Her comment was out of the blue. I like and agree with your definition of what it means to be independent. I’d say my definition is much the same. I think for myself, do my own thing, understand that I’m responsible for myself, all the while being able to get along with other people.

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  73. This post reminded me of my mother. I can’t count how many times she said to me “You know I’m a very independent woman.” I always wondered how she figured that. She never worked a day in her life after I was born, she wasn’t involved in any clubs or anything. She didn’t really even socialize much at all. The only thing I can figure is that she felt independent because she wasn’t intertwined in my father’s business affairs or social circle other than a few selective events here and there. She also had a small inheritance which she considered “her money.” So my first thoughts were maybe something similar with the woman you were referring to, but it is a little odd that she felt like you needed to know that.

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    • Martha, I think you’re onto it with your description of your mother and her money. After thinking about this woman and her unexpected comment, in the context of the social event and taking into consideration her generation, I’ve believe she was telling me she was financially independent. It’s interesting that your mother wanted you to know she considered herself to be independent. Maybe when she said she was independent she was thinking like an introvert and stating that she wasn’t a joiner? 🤷‍♀️

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  74. I like to think of myself as interdependent. (Aren’t we all, really?) I’d also be wondering why the woman felt it was so important for you to know that she was independent. Given her age, I might speculate that she means she doesn’t need help with daily living, doesn’t need to be in an assisted living community. But it could mean just about anything.

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    • Barbara, the self-explanatory comment was unexpected in and of itself, but to tell me I needed to know this about her was odd. I wonder if you’re right that she was confirming that she isn’t in an assisted living community, not that I had any doubts that she got around on her own. Can’t explain the comment, but will say she was a hoot to talk with over the years, better than listening to business babble.

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  75. I love the things you ponder Ally – and I’ve enjoyed the comments of your readers pondering with you. I, alas, have no clue. But I’m willing to imagine she was speaking in code to you. And being the great anagram lover I am, I decoded her message. Independent works out to “Need End Pint.” I speculate the evening was far more trying than she wished and she was headed home for a beer.

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    • Deborah, you win for the BEST comment on this post. I’m laughing here at your logical evaluation of what transpired and your reasonable assessment of what this woman was really saying to me. 🍻

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  76. Hi Ally
    I think this lady’s “I’m independent” might have related to being insecure and still trying to meet needs from all the busy activities and life stuff – which leaves one wanting –
    —
    Also – i know this type of lady – in a way – and the way you described it we got a good feel for the encounter
    -/
    Hard to believe it was two years ago this month / kind of feels longer to me

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    • Yvette, very insightful. I hadn’t thought of what you say, yet it fits her to a T. Maybe she is insecure so she joins all these clubs to try to convince herself she’s independent. I enjoyed talking with her over the years, but can’t quite figure her last remark.

      I agree that it seems MUCH LONGER than two years. I’ve aged about 10 years throughout this pandemic.

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      • Well the way you said vividly described this lady reminded me that maybe she falls into a certain “type” – not sure what we’d call it. and it does sound like you had much patients with her.
        and here is to hoping the pandemic will soon be a memory

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  77. My immediate reaction/assumption is that she means she’s independent from her husband. Since you met each other through your husbands, that makes the most sense to me (I’m not reading other comments so I won’t be influenced by what other’s infer). I think she’s letting you know that she’s at this function because of her husband, but she’s not part of it. She prefers her own activities, which it sounds like she listed (and went on and on) to you about. I feel that she’s needy, to have to tell you this. I guess some women feel too attached to their husbands, in a marriage, and have to declare that they are not “their partner,” or some such thing…??? Fascinating. I’m going to read what others say now.

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    • Pam, your reasoning is sound. As I’ve talked about this woman here, and elsewhere, I’ve come to a similar conclusion based on the way in which we met. Considering the stereotypes associated with her generation I think she was telling me that she considered herself to be different than the rest, that she was financially independent and that she did things without her husband around. Many commenters have mentioned that she was needy, which I hadn’t thought of before [not being a needy person myself]. I think there’s something to that observation, too. She was a pleasant woman, I wouldn’t avoid her if I saw her again– but she was chatty.

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    • Linda, I imagine that could well be what she meant. Considering we knew each other in the shadow of our husbands she might have felt the need to make sure I knew she was independent. Not sure why she thought I needed to know, though.

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  79. I haven’t read anyone else’s comments but it feels like she was separating herself from her husband and declaring that she is her own person instead of just part of a couple. Maybe? I am smiling that you pondered this deeply over the past two years. You DO really think about what motivates people to act certain ways, don’t you?

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    • Kathy, your explanation is what many commenters have said. She wanted me to understand she was more than a wife. It makes sense considering we knew each other as spouses of co-workers. But why she wanted me to know this, I cannot say.

      And yes, I’m endlessly curious about what makes people tick, myself included. To be clear I didn’t think about this comment every day the last two years, just once in a while. 😉

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      • I am thinking about this. Perhaps some part of her felt less than independent, too much absorbed as a couple. She wasn’t really asserting it to you personally, she just needed to say it out loud to reassure herself.

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        • Good point. That could well be why she said what she did. I just happened to be the person listening to her when the realization hit. Nice woman, not at all dotty, so something was cooking in her brain.

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  80. Read this, and many comments.

    Still don’t know just what she wanted to convey.

    But it was delghtful to read all these interesting words. There are so few blogs, with interesting words, in Pretty Blog Land.

    Thank you for being here.

    Gentle hugs…..

    OH MY! I have to fill in all my info again!

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    • Miss B.B., if nothing else this woman, who was pleasant as can be, left me with a good topic for a blog post. I’ll never know for sure what her comment was all about– and that’s okay. Sorry about the WP commenting system. It lives by its own rules. I might even say it’s… independent. 😉

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  81. (Read this when it was posted, and promised myself to comment later…so difficult for me with a cell phone keyboard haha)
    Weird, but she sounds like she worried too much what others think of her. There she was scanning the crowd at the business event realizing so many were there “in the shadow” of their husbands….and she wanted people to know that she was more than “just a wife”. …especially who she sees as unintelligent individual who happens to be married
    Like another commenter, I think she protests too much…and is so busy appearing to be busy to elevate her status.
    Whatever…most people don’t notice or care?
    As long as she is happy with herself, it’s all good as far as I’m concerned.

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    • philmouse, you’re probably onto this woman’s personality. I’d guess that external validation is important to her. Look at all the clubs she’s in; status may be her middle name. I agree that her comment makes me think that she was worried about being perceived as only a spouse thus her declaration about being independent. I imagine if you’re accustomed to being noticed in your own right then you might want to make sure you’re being noticed everywhere for that reason. But to tell me this was odd. Like many have said, me think she doth protest too much.

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  83. Hi Ally, I must have missed this post – such an interesting topic. Coincidentally, I was just thinking about what it means to be independent and to raise independent children (working on that!). I’m wondering about this woman’s comment and why she felt she needed to tell you. On the surface, she seems very independent and has worked hard to be that way, but just by saying it, she’s telling you there’s a vulnerability there. I think it’s great to be independent, by the way, but everybody needs people and leaning on each other a bit is how we join together as couples, as friends or as a community. There are so many definitions too. I’m so glad I saw this post!

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    • Barbara, thanks for adding your comment here. What it means to be independent is endlessly fascinating. I agree that there was some vulnerability going on with this woman when she said what she said. I kind of like the mystery of her comment.

      Like you mention about your kids, my parents were all about me learning to be an independent adult, but like you said they also emphasized that you had to live/get along with other people in this world. Clearly this woman knew how to join groups– but this worried her? Maybe? I dunno.

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